Growth in Consumer Packaged Goods, or CPG, rarely comes from the product alone. On crowded shelves filled with similar offerings, it is often packaging, positioning, and a sharp understanding of the consumer that determine which brands scale and which stall.
Packaging as a Form of Competitive Design
In this episode of the Spilled Salt podcast, Consultant and Creative Director Fred Hart joins host Maureen Ballatori to break down how design functions as a business lever, shaping perception, driving velocity, and influencing long-term market success.
Fred described packaging as “the only form of competitive design,” pointing to the retail shelf where products compete side by side for attention and dollars. In categories like beverages, where products are often similar, design becomes a key driver of consumer choice and identity. “What you’re holding says as much about you as the watch on your wrist,” he said.
Differentiation Wins in Saturated Categories
Referencing brands like Red Bull, Monster, and Rockstar, Fred highlighted how successful companies win by targeting distinct audiences rather than competing on product alone. Monster, for example, succeeded by speaking to a subculture ignored by incumbents.
This principle continues to apply today. Many emerging brands enter crowded categories such as protein or functional beverages, but Fred warned that oversaturation leads to inevitable shakeouts. Founders must focus on solving real consumer problems and building clear positioning.
Shifting Investment and Retail Landscape
Fred emphasized that strong branding should deliver measurable business results. He pointed to design effectiveness metrics that track sales before and after packaging changes.
The conversation also explored renewed activity in mergers and acquisitions, alongside a shift from growth at all costs to profitability. Retailers are adapting by creating space for emerging brands and rethinking in-store experiences to drive traffic and discovery.
What Comes Next in Food and Beverage
Looking ahead, Fred pointed to continued momentum in protein products, alongside growing interest in personalized nutrition and functional health. He also noted a broader shift back toward real, minimally processed foods, including fermented and dairy-based products.
At the same time, themes like longevity and biohacking are influencing both product development and consumer demand, signaling a more health-driven and data-informed future for the industry.
Strong positioning, smart design, and real consumer value remain the foundation for sustainable growth.
Transcript
This transcript has been edited from its original form to support readability.
Maureen Ballatori: I’m Maureen Ballatori and this is Spilled Salt, a podcast on the thrills and spills from the food, beverage and agriculture industries. Today’s guest is Fred Hart. He’s a branding consultant, creative director and design strategist who is obsessed with building and studying Consumer Packaged Goods brands. Over the last decade, he’s built a 30 person branding agency, transformed over 137 CPG brands, won six design effectiveness awards, and he’s been entrusted by visionary founders and Fortune 500 companies to craft strategic design that moves businesses forward.
We talk a bit about the effectiveness point today, but really it’s an excellent, well-rounded discussion about not only creating brands and differentiation and understanding your customer, but also driving velocity in retail and the investment landscape and also of course, as always, a little bit more about what’s coming down the pike. Enjoy the conversation.
Maureen: Hey there, Fred, how are you?
Fred Hart: Doing great, thanks for having me on.
Maureen: Awesome. I’m so glad to have you here. You’re an agency owner after my own heart, went to school for design and, you know, now in the food space. So I’m really excited to learn more about your story.
Fred: I’m excited to share, I’m lucky to.
Maureen: Great. Well, I like to start in the beginning. So take me back to the very early days. Did you always want to be in a creative career?
Fred: I did, yes, I grew up loving and playing basketball and I was always obsessed with the sneakers on my favorite player’s shoes. So I grew up wanting to be a shoe designer actually.
There was a moment when I was 12, I was sending sketches to Adidas and they sent me back probably an Non-disclosure Agreement or something like that and I took it as a form that they were going to seal everything so I never sent them anything again. But my love of sneakers and the design of them was what ultimately put me on the trajectory of my career today.
Maureen: And so why not continue in that athletic and sort of fashion space, what made you pivot to food?
Fred: Well, I think food was just a result of me realizing that I fell in love with packaging design because it’s the only form of competitive design that I think exists. You build shoes, but it sort of exists on its own or billboards or websites or books, all of these things. But with food, you’re spending your hard-earned money and you’re on a shelf next to all of these other brands. And it doesn’t matter how much advertising you spend, all of these things, you’re at the point of purchase and decision-making and design.
It is a powerful psychological tool to get someone to re-examine what they want to spend their hard-earned money on and what they’re willing to try. And I love that chess match that’s happening. But I think I just didn’t know enough about how you become a shoe designer at a young age. Studied graphic design, went to art school in Chicago at first, ended up graduating from the University of Arizona in Tucson with a degree in visual communications.
But it was through an internship that I had my junior summer.with a small design firm out of the Bay area that did a lot of CPG design that I realized, this is what I love. This is what’s really exciting for me. And I’ve pursued that ever since, but trust me, I got a lot of sneakers in my closet. So I indulge in other ways now.
Maureen: So it was, I think it’s always fascinating. This is exactly why I love to hear people’s early stories is because there’s little seeds like that that get planted so early on that lead you to where you are today. And it’s not by accident, right? You follow your passions of what you enjoy and you see little nuggets of interest and pursue those. But what a big statement. You mentioned you feel that packaging design is the only form of competitive design. Talk more about that.
Fred: Well, again, it’s just like where else are sort of a multitude of options being presented at the same time. And design is a huge differentiator. mean, walk into any category, walking down the aisle to go buy a bottle of water. It’s relatively literally all the same stuff inside. Design is what’s driving, you know, interest in one thing or another of a particular narrative or the personification that you want to have as a part of your identity.
I oftentimes say like, you know, particularly in the beverage industry, because you’re seen with them, whereas a lot of food are things that just kind of go away in the pantry. But what you’re holding says as much about you as the watch on your wrist, the shoes on your feet, or the bag on your arm. If I hold a Red Bull versus a Monster versus a Rockstar, there’s three very different narratives about me. And I love the ability to craft that.
Maureen: So true. So tell me about an early project that you worked on early in your career. Maybe it was in, you know, that some one of that first agency that you landed in where you worked on a project and thought, holy shit, this is fucking cool to be able to work on on either a brand.
Fred: So McLean Design was the agency that I worked with and Ian McLean, the founder, is still a very good friend. They’re in the East Bay of San Francisco and they had created Monster Energy Drink from scratch as a brand.
So when I showed up there, they had been a long-term client for a long time and I was just fascinated by the fact that Red Bull had launched in the States 10 years prior to Monster. They cornered the market, it was all of them, they had a monopoly.
And what I learned in talking with Ian and the team was that ultimately there was a large audience that was not being spoken to or marketed to or connected with that Red Bull was ignoring. And there was this subculture going on, exports were really coming into vogue.
And Monster went directly after those individuals. Red Bull was, you know, has this kind of European vibe that feels imported and the gives you wings campaign has never changed. they do so much on the marketing front as a, as a brand overall, but Monster went after a total different audience. And then you had Rockstar that basically went after like, you know, the frat boy party lifestyle, a different consumer persona and case of interests. You know, that to me was just so fascinating that they could create something from scratch in that way and have such phenomenal success through the tools of positioning, understanding the audience, and then using design to create connection.
Maureen: Yes, that’s so cool. I want to better understand the work that you do now. So tell everybody a little bit more about your agency and kind of how you’re working with CPG brands these days.
Fred: Yes. So I started my career at McLean Design. I interned with them. I graduated. I worked for them. Then I went on to a second agency in the Bay area that worked with a lot larger strategics called Prospective Branding. We were working with SC Johnson and Scrubbing Bubbles and Pledge and International Delight Coffee Creamer, which was owned by White Wave, which got acquired by Known. So yes.
Maureen: And so before you move on from that,not to derail, but what was it like? Because, I worked at larger organizations, not at that scale, but we also, you know, have hired folks over the years who worked on larger projects like that, that didn’t like that, you know, sort of role because the bureaucracy is just so layers and layers and layers, right? Was that your experience?
Fred: Yes. Thanks. My experience was that you got to design at scale, which is a very special thing. With McLean Design, they were mostly entrepreneurial brands. So you got a lot more creative vision and you wanted clients that were hungry for disruption and to really challenge category norms. With large strategics, they’re looking to maintain the base, right? They’re risk adverse, they’re conservative, they’re going to test the hell out of everything.
But the first project I worked on was a redesign of international light and client happened to pick something that I designed. And so I saw it all the way through to the end until it showed up on the shelf. And to me, that was such a rewarding experience that it just reinforced to me that I needed to be able to bring the two worlds together.
The entrepreneurial thinking and making that happens with challenger fan with founder led brands, but also forgot a way to infuse some of that into the work with larger strategic.
So I quite enjoy both ends of the spectrum. They keep me fresh. I don’t want to ever be on one side or the other quite honestly.
So anyways, I got kind of both diametrically opposed experiences and then 10 years ago, moved to Boulder, Colorado to join sort of an ex-business partner now and kickstarted an agency called Interact Brands. So for 10 years, I ran that. We built it from three people to 30. We started with mostly emerging categories and
Founder led brands then worked to grow to a stage where we’re touching businesses that have proven product market fit anywhere from 10 to 150 million in revenue with some inflection point where design was needed to help them sort of solve and unlock potential. And then maybe four or five years ago, started really working with some of the blue chip businesses and brands like Nestle and rebranding Hotpockets or rebranding Lean Cuisine. And had a great ride.
I exited that business two years ago and, have been independently consulting with a lot of, CPG brands since, in the process of forming a creative consultancy, I, lot of thoughts about how I think the agency model is kind of broken, and how I want to do a lot of agency style work without the old way of building it. And so that’s kind of what I’m doing now, but it’s a lot of the same things I do brand strategy.
That results in brand identity and packaging design. And then there’s a lot of other things that come, but those are the key focus of the work I do today.
Maureen: So was that concept of the agency model is broken and really wanting to do something different? Was that your reason for wanting to move on and make a change from Interact? Was that you really wanted to do something very different?
Fred: No, just being on different pages with my business partner. I mean, we always had the same goal, but very different philosophies about how to get there. And if you’re off by an inch, you’re going to be off by a mile over a 10 year trajectory together. And so we just wanted different things and had different ideas about how to build culture and teams and growth and things of that nature. So it was just a healthier future for both of us if we just kind of departed.
Maureen: Yes. And I think that’s a respectable thing, right? It’s a gift to be able to know when to go in different directions. And that’s a neutral decision. That place that you explained like 10 to 150 million at an inflection point is really when we work with CPG, that’s where we tend to sit as well. Agency 29, adds in agriculture to the food bev space as well. So we’re food beverage agriculture, which I think makes us different than like what you’re trying to do or what you’re doing. I shouldn’t say trying to, you’re doing it, succeeded.
It is the idea that we really love how the farmer comes into the story and bringing all the way back to how it’s produced and also working with agricultural producers who are working to launch value added, working with municipalities who are trying to help build a whole ecosystem and industry. It’s a really interesting space for us as well as how brands can thrive within that.
But so tell me a little bit more about your work with brands like that, as well as, you know, the behemoths like Nestle and working on something like Hot Pockets and how that informs the work that you’re looking to do now. With the consultancy, like how will you work differently in that model?
Fred: Yes. Well, the new model is basically I have a full-time small core team. So head of new business and account, creative director. I did creative direction for a long time, but I’m really shifting more into the strategy of design. And what we do is we build teams bespoke to the client’s needs. So unlike the traditional agency model where you’ve paid for a certain group of talent that you have on the team.
And oftentimes you’re managing people’s utilization rates and who’s available for what. What I want to do is I want to build the best group of people that best serve the client.
So, you know, post COVID there are so many more talented people that are comfortable being 1099s contractors, freelancers, et cetera. And because I led an agency for 10 years prior to this, I have a very robust Rolodex of people that I’ve had the pleasure of working with and crossing paths with.
You know, I talked to clients all day long. worked to really listen and understand their problems. And once I figure that out, say, okay, well, you know, I basically work on an open source forum. So I will bring these people into the team. No one’s getting white labeled. You’ll have access to all these individuals post the project. And, you know, we’ll basically create a Marvel universe just for what you need. And I think that’s important because different brands have different DNA, particularly visual DNA.
So they also, depending on the audience that we’re trying to go after, I want to make sure that I bring in the right people. I’m working on a company right now that are doing Mexican popsicles or paletas.
I want to create a group that’s actually like from that culture that knows how to bring that to life. And then I’ve simultaneously got a client in the baby food space and I want designers that are parents that understand those life stages and, bring some of those things to the table. And then I’ve got a kids performance product and I want folks that are bringing athletic and performance design experience to the table that are going to have to play with it in a new way in the kids food category.
So I think for me, it just provides more flexibility and a lot of agencies have ended up developing a house style. I want to be style agnostic and this model allows me to do that. And again, built bespoke leads to what the client actually needs.
Maureen: Yes. And with that, your focus can be more about we are focused on solving the problem and figuring out what’s the right way to bring the team together. So again, like I said at the top of our discussion, there’s so many parallels in your approach. My team, we’re intentionally small. We work with freelancers as well, but a team of eight to 10 folks on the team.
And so where I personally am spending my time is more on the consultancy. Like, let’s look at your Profit and Loss statement and determine, you know, where your services are thriving or where your product categories are doing best so we can double down on that. And maybe we get rid of this other thing over here sort of area. And so I’m curious about your trajectory there. Like how did you land in doing more on the strategic side of the house? Because you also have a background or some design effectiveness awards as well that I’m curious about. You know, what made you want to pursue that, you know, kind of thing for that recognition?
Fred: I started my career as a designer. I was always a good designer. I was never a great one. I realized pretty early on though, it was the way that I thought about design that was something I was passionate about, good at and differentiated me. And so I’ve sort of made it my calling to set up the strategic and creative sandbox for teams and then bring them into it and let them do what they do best. And I’m also just a naturally curious individual.
So to your point, you like to look at a P&L and things when I’m working with a CPG business, I want to know who are the retailers, who are the brokers? What does Research and Development look like? You know, what are the regulatory partners? What does innovation look like coming down the pipeline? What types of talent do they have internally on their teams? Where are the categories shifting and changing? What consumer research do they have? I just love the multitude of data points that I can collect and then start to connect. Yes.
And use it to sharpen the creative that we do, which is why, to answer your point about design effectiveness, like I’m not interested in winning design awards. I want to do work that is design award worthy, but the point is to use design to fuel businesses forward. And particularly in packaging, it is such a strong lever to grow businesses, change velocities, change preferences, grow category share, all this stuff that I want.
I want to win awards that say six months post redesign, they saw X amount of sales growth as a result with nothing else changing or, you know, accounting for increase in ad spend or this or that. Those are the proudest moments of my career when the CEO calls me and goes. Fred, you guys did an absolutely great job. The business has never been better.
Maureen: Right. Yes, that’s fantastic. So I know that you don’t go after those awards for the award, check the box, but I’m just curious, what does that measure in particular? Yes, that award competition. Okay, got it.
Fred: What does design effectiveness measure? Yes. Sales pre and post. Yes. So they basically track performance. So they do two things. One, they actually test any of your redesigns versus the current version to see if consumer preference and sentiment changed. And then what they do is they validate it with actual syndicated spins and sales data. And so it’s a third party that kind of awards those things and has been fortunate to win six of them. And, yes, I think it’s just such a wonderful thing.
Designalytics is the group that does that because it just reinforces the power and the strategy behind design. think sometimes the industry gets wrapped up in like, you know, visual trends and, you know, being fast followers and what Gen Z wants something to look like, or on the flip side, you have companies like, you know, what Tropicana did back in the early 2000s and that redesigned and sales plummeting. that it just rewards smart strategic work and they shine a light on it.
Maureen: Yes. Tell me about a project that you’re especially proud of that had crazy effectiveness.
Fred: Well, I mean, there’s a handful of them. Hot Pockets was one that we won design effectiveness for. You know, I always tell people I’m not a math guy, but I think sales increased like 36 % after the first after the refresh and it’s already a billion dollar brand. So it’s a lot of extra Hot Pockets. I think design at that scale again is really hard to do and to do it meaningfully.
Country Archer, Beef Jerky, they were 100 million plus in revenue at the time. They were dominating in natural, but needed to now go into conventional and make a bigger push against some of the other larger meat snacking brands. And we did a refresh and they saw a 20 % increase in growth year over year.
So things like that, I think are just really awesome because that increased revenue allows them to do innovation and continue to equip themselves with more things. And that’s always a really fun journey to be a part of.
Maureen: Yes, one of the things I’m especially passionate about when it comes to working with food and beverage is when they are doing their own manufacturing, because it also allows, right, for some of that innovation to have a place to land rather than a co-packing model, right, where to add something new, it’s a cost center. They’re adding efficiency to their operation instead.
Fred: Yes. I mean, self manufacturing was unsexy from a private equity or VC or, you know, acquisition lens 10 years ago. Today it’s very hot and there’s a lot of acquisitions where the co-manufacturing are actually buying the brands or the brand is buying the co-manufacturing and vertically integrating. And it does allow you to accelerate a lot faster, lower your minimum, you know, quantities of things iterate at a higher degree.
One of my favorite brands is Oats Overnight and they have this hundred thousand Facebook fan page where they get these exclusive small batch runs and they’re trading things from one month to the other. And they’re using all of that to reinforce their R &D program, which is just so cool.
Maureen: Right. Yes, we have a client that does that. They’re very small. an ice cream brand based in Rhode Island. And they have a test batch club that they sell tons around the holidays. Excellent gift, like the community yearns for it. Right. And then they’re using that to test their summer flavors in Q1, Q2. Brilliant. Right. Absolutely love that. And I’m equally passionate about let’s make it smart and make it work and not just make it look good, right?
So going back to that effectiveness. But you started to talk a little bit about investment. And so I suspect maybe you’re more in tune with investment in CPGs these days than I am. I follow AgTech a little bit more closely in the investment space. What’s happening there? Are CPGs getting outside investment?
Fred: Yes, there are. There’s actually a lot of activity in the space right now. A lot of Mergers and Acquisitions going on. You can look at Poppy and they sold for one point something billion to Pepsi. Pepsi also bought Siete. Just in the news recently was Bacchans, the Japanese barbecue sauce. Hop water was just acquired this past week by Anne Heiser-Busch. Yes, Constellation, excuse me. Yes, you’re right.
Maureen: Yes, saw that. Yes, Constellation brands acquired them.
Fred: You know, so there is a lot of movement in this space after a couple of years where people thought that nothing was happening. There’s a lot being written about how big food is, and is still continuing to lose category share.
I mean, you can look at Kraft, Blue Box Mac and cheese really struggling in a world where Google’s is dominating big time. And you can look at their product innovation and see them trying to play catch up. Like they’re launching jalapeno mac and cheese and pizza flavored mac and cheese and everything. They will go back to mac and cheese. And that’s a direct response to a lot of the flavor innovations you’re seeing come from the emerging brands.
So yes, there’s a lot happening, but it seems like the size and scale of which M and A is happening is a higher threshold now. And so that just means you have to stay in the game a little bit longer as a food and beverage entrepreneur, unless.
You focus on just being a profitable business in the first place, which 10 years ago, again, everything was about growth at any cost. And that’s what VCs and private equity was rewarding. And now everyone wants to know about the path to profitability, et cetera, which is the right thing to be doing. mean, you know, people were delighting cash on fire left and right. That’s not the same fundraising environment anymore.
Maureen: Right. Yes. And the same can be said for Ag Tech, basically, you know, like a lot of I would say that they’ve not yet bounced back in the way that we’re starting to see, you know, recognize some of those examples that you mentioned.
There is some more energy happening in CPG that’s not quite there yet with Ag Tech, but I think it’ll come. And the hallmark of that is exactly what you explained to me is that it’s not just, this has sexy potential, but it doesn’t have proven results. Do we actually see that it’s going in this direction? Now, I’m curious about your thoughts about the changing landscape of CPG and the competition for very early stage emerging brands. So of course, it is very glad to hear you say that it’s not just growth at all costs, but it’s about smart growth.
What does this look like? And of course, you’re going to need capital. You’re going to need resources in order to get it there. But with the way that retailers are also changing what they’re sourcing, what they’re putting on shelves and some of that varies from retailer to retailer. But it’s difficult to start. Talk about your thoughts on that a little bit for very early stage emerging brands.
Fred: I’m actually pretty bullish on the environment right now. I spend a lot of time in the emerging brand space. It was just at Expo West. There’s groups like startup CPG, which is really working to facilitate those very early stage brands. Snack Shot is another one that provides a platform and spotlight and highlighting what a lot of these entrepreneurs are doing.
But I’ve also talked to a handful of retailers recently. So I was on a phone call not too long ago with someone from Walmart and the emerging brand space. And their sole role is to get more emerging brands into Walmart’s. And I also talked with them, they had sort of a forager ahead of product innovation at Sprouts and Sprouts has almost taken the mantle from Whole Foods. Whole Foods used to have foragers by region and they had a lot of autonomy post Amazon acquisition. That’s not the case anymore.
But Sprouts now has an innovation set in the middle of the stores with all sorts of really interesting things. And if a brand performs well enough, they then get placement in the center store in line. And then on top of that, I think you have this next wave of entrepreneurs in the food and beverage space that are building online, building in public, using entrepreneur as the new sort of like food celebrity.
You could see this on LinkedIn all the time. And I think they’re much more content savvy, understand how to build networks and communities as well as give themselves better feedback loops than entrepreneurs had in the past. And so there’s a lot of tools that I think are allowing the ones that are smart about things to thrive.
But at the end of the day, all brands have to solve a problem. All products have to solve a problem. And you also get too many fast fallers in industry because everyone feels like they can strike it rich with gold. Like protein is having that effect on people, protein soda is like the next big wave and probiotic soda is also like there are too many brands there.
There is a proverbial bubble that will burst and a lot of entrepreneurs will be left on the sidelines in a bad way. So I think you just have to be smart and dedicated and know that it’s going to be a long haul, but there’s a lot happening in a good way at the ground level.
Maureen: Yes, and I’m also hopeful, right, and enthusiastic about the continued growth of the sector. But when you talk about something like, you know, somebody who is working on emerging brands for Walmart, that’s such a dichotomy in my mind, right? Because Walmart has such a scale, right? And there is such a capital investment that’s needed to be able to drive velocity at that sort of scale that emerging brands don’t necessarily have. Do you know what model they’re implementing to make that work for early stage brands?
Fred: I don’t know a lot about it. I do know that Walmart wants to stay relevant and they’re fighting for that. I was just informed that there’s, I think it’s called open call. It’s a day where Walmart brings in manufacturers that manufacture in the United States to figure out how to better support them, highlight them within their stores, and be all about American made.
Which is a hot topic right now politically as well. So yes, I don’t know the specifics of how they are going about supporting emerging brands, but I can connect you to the person I know. Maybe they’d be great to have on the podcast.
Maureen: Yes, that sounds great. I would love to pick their brain. Going back to and perhaps staying focused on retail for a second here and again, looking back to your comment about packaging being one of the only forms of competitive design. What are your thoughts on how that landscape is changing with less and less foot traffic going into stores these days, right? With Instacart shoppers.
Traffic is down across the board in retail stores. And so how is that, how does a brand stay competitive?
Fred: Yes. Well, I think some of that pressure is actually on the retailer. What can a retailer do to drive traffic? Their business is inherently based on that to a large degree. They have better margins when people are walking into their stores. Basket size is typically larger. There’s more discovery and impulse that’s happening. So they’re incentivized to do that. Kimberly, I have not heard that foot traffic is down in grocery or mass. I know it’s down in C stores. I could be behind the times.
Maureen: Yes, I was talking to a retailer for a hundred store retailer a couple months ago who said it’s significantly down.
Fred: Yes. I think it comes down to a retail strategy. I mean, like it’s not really fair because there’s no scale there, but like Erewhon in Los Angeles, like stores can’t be big enough. Costco has probably never seen more traffic in sales than ever. you look at Target, Target has obviously seen decline sales post the DE &I fiasco and debacle that they’ve had.
But something I’ve noticed recently is like, end caps, they’re activating those in a much larger way. They’re bringing in many more celebrity or influencer based brands as a way to get kind of more Gen Z in the stores. On top of that, they’re doing really interesting merchandising units where like there was a collaboration between Starbucks and Vital Proteins, collagen. One booth, both brands there building around their ritual, making it easy for a consumer to kind of upgrade one part of their morning routine.
They were doing the same things with SAUS, which is like a really cool emerging pasta sauce brand, and Brahmi, which makes a protein pasta, and basically allowing consumers to upgrade their pasta night in really meaningful ways. I think when consumers think about day parts, occasions, moments in the consumer’s lives and retail around that. You see a big uptake. I think for retailers that, you know, aren’t thinking or trying to progress around how people want to shop or people want to live, then, you know, they falter.
I mean, Buc-ee’s, if you’ve ever heard of Buc-ee’s, the giant it can be, we’ve got a couple out here in Colorado now, you know, massive businesses continue to grow. They can’t get enough. You can find examples of growth and you can find examples of decline at the same time.
Maureen: Great point. Yes, for sure. I think it’s also, it’s interesting, number one, as a person who’s an expert in CPG, here you say in that scenario that the onus is on the retailer is an interesting perspective because also I find myself with the CPGs that we’re working with of constantly reinforcing it’s your job to drive velocity.
Fred: Totally. I mean, the more that you could bring new category entrants into the store, like Liquid Death did, that spoke to a whole new audience. That is great, but ultimately it’s the retail that’s paying for all that space.
Maureen: Yes, true. Such a great point. Yes, I don’t disagree. And I think also that that, you know, I do a lot of talks around the US to audiences that are looking to build brands and Liquid Death is an example that I use frequently because it was a true disruptor. Right.
What a sleepy category. I know, and just like you said, you would walk down the water island. It was a sea of sameness left and right. It’s all blues and greens and clear bottles and, you know, and it’s cellophane. Packed and again and again and again. And Liquid Death came in and did something truly remarkably different.
And I know you had a post semi-recently on LinkedIn about innovative packaging that I think about a lot, right? In terms of sunscreen going in a container that sort of reminds you of shaving cream. Yes, whipped cream. That’s what it was. Yes. And so encouraging people to bring, you said moments, you know, with how things are merchandise within the store, but it’s also about bringing experiential and fun into CPG, especially in food and beverage, right?
Where, you know, that’s something that all humans are going to need all the time forever and ever, you know? So that demand is never going to go away. It’s just, it’s evolving and changing.
One of the things I’d love your thoughts on, again, with respect to those moments and cross-merchandising that you’re talking about is, I’m seeing a lot of brand crossovers or brand collabs that have been really interesting too, especially when it’s a non-food item that’s collabing with a brand. saw, this was a while ago, but I want to say it was an apple cider collaboration with Carhartt or something along those lines that was seeing crossovers like that. What are your thoughts on industry crossovers?
Fred: We live in an attention based economy and co-branding partnerships, limited edition drops capsules are a great way to bring novelty and newness. And to your point kind of unexpected pairings like Van Lewen doing a, you know, French’s mustard ice cream pint. You’re like, what the hell, but it’s organic press and Public Relations. It establishes a bent of innovation for Van Luen. So they don’t feel like they’re the old fuddy duddy hog and dogs of the world.
I think a lot of brands do it. The ones that do it with some strategy and some smarts and some cultural cache are the ones that obviously have the most lasting power. But I think, yes, you know, we live in such a fast paced environment where we constantly want new news that
These are easy ways to do interesting things. And you’re even seeing big CPG get in on it.
Maureen: Yes. And fringe audiences too, right? When you think about, you know, well, we feel that we have an opportunity to play more in this audience and this, you know, French’s Mustard really owns this type of consumer, right? And so we’re going to do a crossover with them because there’s such alignment there.I think it also goes back to a lot of what you were talking about earlier in terms of the opportunity to disrupt, to disrupt is so connected to having a very clear understanding of that customer persona.
Fred: Yes, exactly. That’s at the end of the day, these brands are building for audiences. There is no brand without it. So how do you either expand your audiences or keep your audience engaged?
Maureen: Yes and keep it really, really tight and focused. Last question for you, tell me a little bit more about what you think is next for the industry. What are you excited about that’s coming down the pike?
Fred: Well, the protein bubble is going to burst and it’s not going to be pretty in the same way that plant-based was very much oversaturated. What’s next? I mean, protein is also what’s next. It hasn’t even hit peak yet. I’ve talked a little bit about that with past people.
I think that personalization in food is still not taken off and I’m waiting for that to happen in supplements. We have so much information at our fingertips when it comes to testing blood, DNA, mapping our genomes. And in a post-GLP-1 world where we are trying to find our idealized self, I think that personalized nutrition is still very much like in its infancy, ultimately take off more.
I think a return to real food as well is starting to finally make some, some noise. You know, you’re seeing uptick in sourdough, fermented foods, things that are naturally high in probiotics and fiber rather than being, you know, concocted and fortified through supplemental ingredients and things of that nature.
Yes, right now there’s a return to dairy in a lot of ways, in particular animal products.
Maureen: Yes, I grew up on a dairy farm, big fan of the dairy industry and all of the value added products that come out of dairy. You know, not just the basics like cottage cheese and, you know, other cheeses that have been, you know, on the top of the list for so long. But, you know, we have a client that makes a calcium chew from real milk and there’s a brand you actually I’m going to see Moozy next week. You featured them from Expo. Is that not awesome? They have the largest dairy farm in the Northeast and I am so stoked for them and talk about creating something new and different and innovative in the dairy space, but really it is at its core.
Fred: Moozy is incredible. You’re going to love him. It’s the best thing ever. Yes, fifth generation, such a cool story.
Maureen: And I’m using heavy air quotes for anybody who’s not watching this, like the, it’s just fluid milk, but they’ve done it in a way that adds the things that people care about and they’re delivering it in such an exciting way. But I think you’re spot on with not only real food and personalized nutrition, but gut health is what’s at the core of things like fermented food and longevity is also what is coming into play.
I’m hearing about it more and more often too. Are you starting to hear more rumblings of that, of intention with longevity about living longer and better?
Fred: Yes, biohacking is a big thing. You’ve got all of these podcasts with all of these individuals like touting, you know, ways of living longer. I think ultimately at the end of the day, we’re trying to expand our lifespan and food is medicine if you eat the right things.
So yes, a hundred percent. And that’s definitely, you’ve seen tons of that in the supplement side, but it’s also bleeding over. I mean, like athletic greens and grooms, these brands are selling the convenience of longevity oriented supplements, minerals, vitamins, et cetera, through very friendly formats. So ultimately there’s, science will be important, efficacy will be important because there are some smoke and mirrors within the industry as a whole.
Maureen: Totally, totally agree. Fred, thank you. This was fascinating. Always love to speak to another food nerd. So thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. It was great to connect.